456 - Gavin Ortlund - Who Can Be Saved?
The Symbolic World
I had a discussion with Gavin Ortlund about the Orthodox Church's position on salvation outside the church. YouTube version: https://youtu.be/RtC8ENpbOW4 Buy Little Red Riding Hood now during the month of June and get the audiobook with for free: https://store.thesymbolicworld.com/ Join Seraphim Hamilton in studying the Book of Isaiah this June. Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/the-fifth-gospel Timestamps 00:00 Introduction and background to the discussion 03:08 Steelmanning each other’s positions 04:12 Gavin summarizes the Orthodox view of salvation 05:37 Jonathan explains salvation as healing and theosis 06:36 Normative and non-normative ways of salvation 08:13 Jonathan summarizes Gavin’s historical argument 10:53 Gavin clarifies his thesis about Orthodoxy, Catholics, and Protestants 16:40 Is the modern Orthodox view a return to earlier tradition? 18:32 Gavin explains why the 9th–19th century period matters 20:20 Disagreement over whether individuals can be declared damned 22:57 Jonathan responds on Orthodox theological boundaries 24:54 Debate over the 9th century and the Photian schism 31:32 The question: Is Gavin a Christian brother? 38:37 The Synod of Jerusalem and Protestant theology 41:36 Jonathan reads from the Synod of Jerusalem 43:56 Gavin responds to Jonathan’s use of an old blog post 46:42 Gavin outlines the Synod’s language about Protestants 49:12 Jonathan argues synods define norms, not individual destinies 52:28 Gavin challenges the “normative” reading of the Synod 55:20 Normative texts, dogmatic authority, and qualifications 58:13 Theophan the Recluse and hope for the non-Orthodox 01:04:16 St. Philaret of Moscow and leaving souls to God’s mercy 01:09:35 Protestant missions in Orthodox lands 01:11:23 Gavin defends Protestant missionary theology 01:13:30 Jonathan critiques Protestant evangelism and denominationalism 01:16:21 The Eucharist, communion, and institutional exclusivism 01:18:16 Gavin explains why he is not Orthodox 01:20:44 Jonathan on Christ’s presence and God’s desire to save all 01:21:59 Are Protestants categorized like Buddhists or Muslims? 01:25:36 Salvation as transformation into the image of Christ 01:28:55 Theophan’s advice: focus on your own salvation 01:30:06 Personal holiness and evangelism 01:32:18 Calvinism, evangelism, and divine decree 01:36:52 Predestination, foreknowledge, and the River of Fire 01:39:59 Closing the theological discussion 01:40:33 Gavin’s apology and reflections on online discourse 01:42:59 A call for patient Protestant-Orthodox dialogue 01:44:12 Jonathan’s closing thanks 🔓 Become a patron to support us and unlock exclusive monthly symbolism content: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe 💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com 🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau 🎧 Listen to and review The Symbolic World podcast: -Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0gI8bUwPtT3gkduHqNh6M5 -Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-symbolic-world/id1386867488 Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/